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Report 1270
Report #1270 Skillset: Sacraments Skill: Inquisition Org: Shofangi Status: Completed Sept 2013 Furies' Decision: Solutions 1 and 2. Problem: Inquisition is currently a tad too strong in groups due to how quickly a team of sacraments users can inquisition someone. On the other hand inquisition is weak for use by knights using sacraments because it diverts them from power attacks and does not prevent stancing and parrying while inquisitioned, and is weak for healer/sacraments celestines because there is no viable kill method left to them even if they manage to inquisiton someone. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Reduce the effectiveness of inquisition in group combat by causing infidel to close off the heretic aura so that another person cannot immediately inquisition off of the heretic aura. Credit goes to Placeus for this insight into the mechanics of inquisition. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Solution one and to assist knights, cause inquisition to reset parry to zero (I believe it already resets stance since it counts as a defense), suppress natural dodging while under the effects of inquisition. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Solution two and to assist (healer) celestines, change the power cost of an absolve cast at a target you've inquisitioned to 1p. Player Comments: ---on 9/8 @ 01:54 writes: This is a redo of report 1247, I decided to redo it to keep things clean and keep the old report so folks could see the old comments. I will delete the other report once this has been either approved or denied. ---on 9/8 @ 04:07 writes: Solution 1 sounds fine. Solution 2 seems a little off, but I am unsure of the mechanics at work and will research before making any claims. Solution 3, however, is absolutely not acceptable. While this would, indeed, be an immense boon to Healer Celestines, it would prove to be far, far too powerful in combination with Tarot and might serve to skew power in a group setting. As it is, simply heretic and infidel are enough to remove someone from a fight, as they must scamper off and let it fade away before returning. Allowing it to lead to absolves with such a mechanically high success rate is simply too much. Frankly, Healers do not need help. Tarot and Astrology users are in good places offensively. Healing isn't meant to be a tertiary you take if you want all the kills. It's meant to keep you alive and offer group support. There is no need to buff its offensive power, as it is quite literally the king of defensive skills. There is no need to make a Healer Celestine both unkillable and -that- dangerous. ---on 9/8 @ 05:08 writes: 1 + 2 only ---on 9/8 @ 20:45 writes: Solutions 1 and 2 supported. No to 3 ---on 9/9 @ 19:44 writes: Ps definite no to 3 ---on 9/10 @ 03:11 writes: Per my comments on report 1247: Solution 1 is required. Solution 2 I am skeptical about, since parry -cannot- be moved when inquisitioned (giving a knight a large advantage already, and the knight can then use actions to prone to take further advantage). Solution 3 is an absolutely overpowered addition which would completely break Celestine combat, allowing absurdly easy combinations to get to absolve (as there would be no need to ever have to hold back power, you'll get that 1p back by the time inquisition fades). ---on 9/11 @ 20:34 writes: This is -much- better I think. Although, I don't think solution one should tie into solution two which ties into solution three if I'm reading this right. I like Solution two and three minus the additional solutions of the priors. ---on 9/11 @ 22:58 writes: Wow, no. Just no. There is absolutely NO WAY that solution three should ever be implemented, much less be implemented without solution one. You could have two people put the inqui-chain together for 1-p absolves. That is absolutely insane. ---on 9/11 @ 23:42 writes: So you want the buffs to inquisition without reducing its group combat effectiveness...yeah...definite no to 3. if you want to make absolves easier, i would rather redesign inqui as an affliction completely. ---on 9/13 @ 00:10 writes: I don't understand the opposition to Sol. 2. I'm basically saying that parry should be treated as a defense for this and should be stripped. It doesn't make sense either thematically or in game balance that everything else gets stripped but you can still parry while stunned. And there is a reason I chained everything off of solution 1, reducing the effectiveness of group-quisition is the point of this report, I was just hoping to trade off that nerf for some offense in another area. ---on 9/13 @ 15:24 writes: I agree that parrying should be stripped, it technically is a sort of defense (and makes no sense themeatically to be able to parry while you're stunned from the inquisition ---on 9/13 @ 16:31 writes: @Wobou: I understand the desire to exchange a nerf for a buff, but often times doing that is unneeded. Being unable to change your parry will allow a knight to focus a specific limb or area, and a simple beast spit mantakaya at the start of the inquisition will enable parry null. ---on 9/14 @ 00:09 writes: If I had to be honest, people shouldn't be able to build off of auras opened by other people if we really want to change its group combat effectiveness. That's honestly the most needed thing in my eyes. ---on 9/14 @ 00:14 writes: That said, solution 1 is a...somewhat acceptable substitute I suppose, but the ideal would be that the caster of inquisition should be the caster of Heretic and Infidel. ---on 9/14 @ 01:48 writes: ... wait, wait. Report 1247 said that specifically. I guess I missed that this one changed that. I have to agree with Rivius, that original solution is the one that was needed. When I said that solution 1 was required, I was talking about solution 1 of 1247, not this watered-down... thing (though now I am even more confused as to why Yurika would have argued against it, it's not even much of a nerf at all in its present form- a very slight additional delay but still allowing for tag-teaming of the progression). ---on 9/14 @ 01:54 writes: Basically: Sacrifice needed to not be tag-teamable. It was made so. Inquisition similarly needs to be made not tag-teamable. Simple problem, simple solution. It doesn't need buffs or sops to make it more desireable after this, it's an extraordinarily powerful ability when prepared and used right. It should not also be an easy lock-down button in group fights. It will still be -every bit as powerful- in 1v1 fighting, as making it not tagteamable will not nerf it at all there. The change only fixes its impact in groups, and that's needed. ---on 9/14 @ 02:12 writes: Heretic/Infidel/Inqui should not be tag teamable yes. I thought that was the aim of this report. iguess I didn't look over it right heh. Only in support of solution 1/2 if changed to the caster of heretic must be the same caster as infidel and inqui instead of just infidel ---on 9/14 @ 06:44 writes: I support inquisition needing to be done by the person who cast heretic/infidel as well. This is a good addition instead of solution 1 ---on 9/14 @ 11:34 writes: I'm pretty sure that's the case with most of us commenting here, Thoros. I imagine we all just saw it as a repeat of the last report and didn't realize that Sol1 changed (especially with the first comment pretty much implying it was the same report). Oh well. ---on 9/14 @ 17:57 writes: I was swayed by Placeus's arguments about the nerf I had proposed before and the differences between crux and inquisition, especially given that several of you aren't for stripping parry which I think is about the smallest buff that you could give to Inquisition. Let's do this smaller nerf (and potentially small buff) and see how inquisition is used in group combat. If it's still felt to be too strong then we can address it again. ---on 9/14 @ 18:29 writes: I disagree that a buff is even necessary- it is very powerful, and you want to increase its efficacy in 1v1 without reducing it in any sense there. I further disagree that this "smaller nerf" is addressing the problem that you yourself put forth. It still allows for tag-teaming the chain up to share the load and push it at the absolute fastest possible rate (no need to wait for power recovery). Why not just fix it the first time? ---on 9/14 @ 18:32 writes: ^ what Xenthos said. Fix it the first time. DOesn't need to be fixed 500 times - just once heh. ---on 9/14 @ 18:32 writes: But I still agree it should strip parry, but then again it's so easy to bypass parry with a simple proning or beast spit mantakaya - i dont know, i'm both sides on this. ---on 9/15 @ 02:04 writes: Any decision made on Inquisition by comparing it to Crucify is going to be a poor decision. The skills serve different purposes all together. Even at their core, they are leagues apart. I do not understand the need to compare opposing skills and suggest that the abilities within them should be similar in the slightest. In this particular instance, just the basic principle of the skills are inherently and fundamentally different. Inquisition is a massive effect rewarded for patience, persistence, and reaction with a lasting, persistent effect (in stripping most defenses), whereas Crucify is an instant, short- lasting burst which must be perpetuated by the caster to achieve its maximum potential (via ectoplasm and balance-loss stacking). The two abilities needn't be compared. Frankly, if you wish to compare them by themselves, it seems a logical conclusion is that since Inquisition is far more powerful than Crucify in both solo and group situations (as even a flawlessly executed balance- loss/crux combo can be screwed up by RNG passive tics and Inquisition cannot), Crucify should be buffed. ---on 9/15 @ 02:09 writes: That said, the problem is when you compare the tandem skills able to be used in tandem. Inquisition gives the reward of an enemy being robbed of all defenses and incapable of moving away from a meteor or soulless fling for, quite literally, only having to track someone and time your attacks. Crucify, however, only provides a similar benefit when the caster applies skillful timing, tracking of opponent cures, and preparation. Even then, Crucify's benefits are not nearly as great as those offered by Inquisition - especially in a group setting. While Crucify might be able to prone someone for a few seconds, just the pre-Inquisition stages (heretic and infidel) can remove someone from a fight completely, as the only cure to them is time. Any buff to Inquisition is a buff that is not necessary, for group -or- solo combat. Frankly, Paladins who choose Sacraments should be elated that they actually have skills in their tertiary -worth- using, and should also understand the benefits of becoming a defensive powerhouse far outweigh the fact that Inquisition doesn't remove parry. ---on 9/15 @ 03:25 writes: Nice, okay. Kio has convinced me as of why inquisition should not strip parry. Didn't really look at it in that way. ---on 9/16 @ 00:52 writes: @Kio: Placeus's arguments are basically the same as yours in terms of treating the skills differently. Where in this report do I mention sac crux as justification or comparison for anything? This report is in response to many people saying that group inquisition was too strong because it could be achieved to quickly. I think solution 1 will adequately address that problem and if it doesn't then another report can be made to perform the harsher nerf I was initially going to suggest. @Thoros/Xenthos: It's convenient to say fix it once when it's a nerf to a skill that you don't possess. Balance is best done with a series of small changes to calibrate things, not big ones. Sometimes things are so out of whack that you have no choice but to aim for a big change, I don't think this qualifies for that. No one has actually made a counter argument for why Solution 2 would be some ridiculous buff or why it makes sense thematically but it's such a small part of this report that I'm not going to bother restating my case. ---on 9/16 @ 01:31 writes: You should know by now that nerfs are much harder to do (as it rightly should be) when it's to a skillset you don't possess. That line of justification shouldn't be really used here, in my opinion ---on 9/16 @ 01:37 writes: I'm remain unconvinced that delaying the aura window will solve the group inquisition problem. All that does is delay when your buddy can put up inquisition after you infidel. It doesn't solve anything other than slowing it down by a few seconds, which in group combat, is pretty easy to hinder someone long enough to get that. Even if you manage to get away, you are still removed from the group and no longer contributing to the fight. It removes the 'wait' for power that is seen in 1v1 and balances the skill around 1v1. I'm not convinced that it goes far enough to solve the issue, and feel it's more of a divert solution to maintain inquisitions strength. It's incredibly strong and making the infidel/inquisition chain at least the same person solves the issue while not affecting 1v1 combat at all. I would prefer to see that case than this change that doesn't do anything other than delay the inquisition a few moments ---on 9/16 @ 02:21 writes: Solution 1 will not solve that problem because it will -still be done too quickly-. It will just be done on the next available window, instead of slammed in all at once. There is no need to wait for power recovery, no need to stretch things out a bit. This change -will not affect solo combat at all-. It will only fix the skill in groups, and solution 1 just does not do what you say it will. ---on 9/16 @ 02:23 writes: Basically, you let yourself get talked out of fixing the skill by someone who doesn't want to see it fixed, is the way I read it. The current solution 1 is, essentially, no change from what is experienced now. Windows are not -that- far apart. ---on 9/16 @ 21:07 writes: But we have. Paladins don't NEED Inquisition to strip parry, because they can just as easily prone on the inquisition with beast spit mantakaya, or prone immediately afterward with tendons or knockdowns. Paladins who choose Sacraments are a defensive POWERHOUSE. Between all the skills they get, AND CAN USE (as many of the Ritual Knights get a spec that is for the most part useless), they -do not need this buff to their offense-. If you want Sacraments' offensive abilities to be buffed, nerf its defensive abilities. You can't be an unkillable monster while also being a slaughterhouse. That said, I agree with the realization that this does nothing to properly balance Inquisition in a group setting. The EXACT SAME PERSON should be responsible for casting all three of Heretic, Infidel, and Inquisition. It is far, far too powerful if any others can help, as the assistance of others completely negates its -only- balancing factors: the wait window, and more importantly, the power cost. Type MORE to continue reading. (50% shown)